Author Topic: TPMS keeps giving false alerts  (Read 16245 times)

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Offline Gewitty

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TPMS keeps giving false alerts
« on: February 13, 2017, 07:52:47 pm »
My 2013 Mazda 6 SportNav has started to give frequent false tyre pressure alerts. About a year ago, I noticed an occasional alert, which I reported to my main dealer when I had the car serviced. They gave me a story about some road surfaces having a metal content which affects the sensors. However, since then the problem has got progressively worse. I now get an alert almost every trip, usualy after about 30 mins.

I constantly check my tyre pressures, but there are no significant variances which would explain the alerts.

I'm not sure if I'm looking at a sensor fault or software glitch. If anyone has experienced similar problems, I'd be interested to hear what the cause might be.

Offline Cee-Jay-Cee

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Re: TPMS keeps giving false alerts
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2017, 09:07:01 am »
Is it the same sensor each time or different sensors each time? Obviously if its the same sensor then its quite likely the sensor that's at fault however if its different sensors then it could be a fault with the unit.

Offline Gewitty

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Re: TPMS keeps giving false alerts
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2017, 03:36:54 pm »
My system doesn't indicate which wheel is causing the alert, just flashes up an orange 'tyre' icon and an alert message.

Offline ColinB

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Re: TPMS keeps giving false alerts
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2017, 08:19:15 am »
The Gen 3 cars don't have TPMS sensors. They use the cheaper and less accurate indirect system which entails comparing data from the ABS sensors to detect if one or more tyres have a different rolling diameter than the others thus the system doesn't identify which wheel is a fault, only that there is an apparent mismatch. I say mismatch as it appears that the alarm can be triggered by fitting a replacement tyre which although conforming to spec has slightly different characteristics to the others on the car. (different tread, sidewall flex etc.) I had this problem when I fitted a replacement and despite severl visits to the dealer and the involvement of Mazda technical department it still wasn't resolved when I traded the car in. It is almost certainly a software problem and I would have thought Mazda would have fixed it by now.

Offline Gewitty

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Re: TPMS keeps giving false alerts
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2017, 10:03:39 am »
That may well be the problem. I first noticed the problem after changing the original two front tyres for a different brand. The occurrences became more frequent after I recently had to get a new rear tyre, following a puncture. The rear now has two fairly new tyres with similar tread patterns, although different brands.

I might try contacting Mazda directly to see what they have to say. Raising questions like this with my dealer usually results in a whole load of waffle (AKA 'We haven't got a clue').

Thanks for the info anyway.

Offline ColinB

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Re: TPMS keeps giving false alerts
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2017, 05:17:52 pm »
Mazda UK technical dept are aware of the issue as my dealer was asked to forward data dumps from the car's system to them for analysis.

Offline Gewitty

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Re: TPMS keeps giving false alerts
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2017, 06:34:48 pm »
That's interesting. I emailed them today and their response was that I should bin the new tyre I had to get fitted after the puncture and buy another new tyre which was the exactly the same as the existing tyres.according to Mazda, anything other than four identical tyres will cause the TPMS to go into meltdown. Needless to say, at over £200 a pop,  I told them that this is not an acceptable answer.

The problem is clearly a software issue and I have asked them to give me a sensible answer, rather than the issue-dodging response they gave.

Offline stevem100

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Re: TPMS keeps giving false alerts
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2017, 08:04:09 pm »
Hi i take it you are resetting the system when it happens. On my old 2014 6 i ran for a while with a more worn tyre on the N/S/R compared to the O/S/R about a quarter more worn and the alarm never went off but when a front tyre pressure was 8 lb less than the other off went the alarm pumped tyres up to 36 on both fronts  didn't have a puncture and the alarm never went off again. But every time you do the tyre pressures or change the tyres you have to reset the senser.
Hope this helps probably not as i take it you have already done all this.
Cheers Steve  8)

Offline ColinB

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Re: TPMS keeps giving false alerts
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2017, 09:08:41 pm »
Yes, I think that response is completely unacceptable. The car cannot accommodate a proper spare, just a 50 mile space saver at best and you have to buy that as an extra. So if you get a puncture you will almost certainly have to accept whatever equivalent tyre the local tyre services place can provide to get you back on the road which is unlikely to be identical to the tyre you are replacing. The system should be able to deal with that situation and if not then it isn't fit for purpose. That is Mazda's problem, not yours. There is nothing in the handbook to suggest that you can only replace a tyre with one identical to those which were factory fitted and it would be quite unreasonable to make that assumption. You might have to order one from Japan with the car off the road in the meantime!

If Mazda are incapable of modifying their software to deal with this then it would be better if the TPMS system is disabled permanently as it is clearly unfit for purpose. It's pretty useless anyway really as if you have a puncture you will see or feel it soon enough.


Offline Gewitty

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Re: TPMS keeps giving false alerts
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2017, 09:22:50 pm »
Yes. I reset the system after checking/inflating tyres and have to do the same when any false alarm appears.

The problem is almost precisely as Mazda have described it: Any change from the factory set-up of four identical tyres can result in false alerts. But whilst this may be the explanation, it is by no means an acceptable situation. In real life owners will almost invariably fit new tyres which are not identical to those already on the car. To have a system which cannot accomodate this is ridiculous. As I have pointed out to Mazda, if a driver on a motorway doing 70mph suddenly gets a tyre pressure warning which he cannot trust to be real, he has little option but to slow right down and get off at the nearest service area to check pressures. But if this happens several times on a journey, as it has in my case, the situation goes from farcical to intolerable. Eventually, the warnings have to be ignored. But what happens then if a real tyre problem develops? There is a real possibility of an accident.

Mazda need to sort the problem out and provide a solution, before such a dangerous situation arises.


Offline Gewitty

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Re: TPMS keeps giving false alerts
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2017, 04:07:09 pm »
I emailed Mazda again and told them that I didn't think that their suggestion of replacing a brand new tyre was very helpful. I also asked that they provide me with a more sensible answer. This is what came back:

"I am sorry the TPMS system is causing concern.

I can confirm the system is fully explained in the owners handbook on page 4-142 – 4-145, this also explains the warning can occur when different size, manufacture or tyre type are used. Therefore it is recommended the tyres are all the same type and manufacturer on the vehicle to ensure correct functionality of the TPMS, without this a warning can occur. This is not a fault, but how the system operates and as a result we would not be in a position to offer any solution other than to replace the odd tyre.

I am sorry my final response is not more positive but I hope I have been able to clarify the concerns raised."


I'm thinking of escalating this through their formal complaints process, but would I just be wasting my time?

Offline Willpower

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Re: TPMS keeps giving false alerts
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2017, 04:46:20 pm »
I think you have hit the brickwall of "Company stance".   

If you are still aggrieved by this answer, then you have every right to escalate it as you have considered. However as they have quoted the owners handbook at you and they believe that your TPMS is behaving as designed, then I think you have little chance of any further progress.   
Look at life through the windscreen, not the rearview mirror.

Offline Gewitty

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Re: TPMS keeps giving false alerts
« Reply #12 on: February 28, 2017, 09:30:25 pm »
I think you may be right. That last email definitely shut down any further discussion of the matter, which leaves me both without a solution and rather angry at their dismissive attitude.

The car will reach it's fourth birthday in a couple of months. Up until now, I've been really pleased with it and would certainly have been going back to Mazda for it's replacement. Now however, I'll be doing what all poorly treated customers have the option of doing - I'll be voting with my feet and heading elsewhere.

Offline ColinB

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Re: TPMS keeps giving false alerts
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2017, 10:07:21 am »
I think this still leaves a number of issues outstanding. For example is it reasonable for Mazda to require that identical tyres to the original fitments are needed for the designed operation of a key safety system?

Section 9-12 of my handbook has a note that 'Recommends' that tyres of the same type be fitted to the vehicle. I would have felt that 'type' should mean tyres of the same specification not identical to those originally fitted (which may no longer be in production a couple of years or so down the line). The note also suggests that an 'expert repairer' be contacted. (they recommend a Mazda repairer of course). I would take expert repairer to be a competent tyre replacement depot in which case tyres of the same specification rather than manufacture will be offered which was the case for my car.

Basically their TPMS system is crap and they are trying to wriggle out of responsibility but what to do next?

There is a lot about indirect TPMS systems and faults online, particularly in the USA where they get worked up about these things but one pertinent point I have found is that the reset button should recalibrate the system after a tyre change to tell the car that the current setup is now the baseline. This is also mentioned in the Mazda manual. Clearly the Mazda system doesn't appear to be doing this and it should do.

Some options:

It might be an idea to try and raise the profile of the problem on something like the Honest John Website and see what response that brings. If other manufacturers have  systems that can cope with new but not identical tyres of the same specification then Mazda should be able to do so as well.

Secondly, it could be worth approaching one of the motoring magazines such as What Car or Autocar to see if they would be interested in running it in their 'problem' section.

Thirdly, your local Trading Standards Office might be able to give an opinion as to whether Mazda's stance is reasonable but first I think you would need to accumulate some supporting information such as whether the problem occurs with other manufacturers. They should also be able to give an opinion about whether it is reasonable for Mazda to insist that you must buy identical replacement tyres - after all you weren't told that when you bought the car and they are expensive wear and tear items.

There is also the safety aspect. If you have a warning system that is giving constant false alerts how does this affect the roadworthiness status of the vehicle? Also, if the TPMS light is on when it goes in for an MOT will it pass - I think all fitted safety systems are required to be working.

Mazda might be unwilling to shift on this at the moment but may change their attitude if significant bad publicity is likely to be generated.

Colin

Offline Gewitty

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Re: TPMS keeps giving false alerts
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2017, 11:46:25 am »
Thanks for the thoughts. As you say, it might be worth exploring some of these ideas.

To be clear; Mazda have never insisted that I replace tyres with the identical original factory fitted type, only that I should have all four tyres of the same make and size. However, this is not always practical. In my case, I was stuck abroad, with a tyre which could not be repaired. An identical tyre was not available, so I had to opt for the nearest substitute. This was of exactly the same size, with a similar tread pattern, but from a different manufacturer. At a price of around £200, there is no way I could reasonably be expected to spend another £200 to replace it after returning home.

As you point out, after replacing a tyre (of the correct spec), all that should be required is a reset of the TPMS system, which should set a new baseline against which it can measure when pressure drops in one or more tyres. However, although I can reset the system easily enough, it will then trigger an alert quite randomly some time later. This appears to give the lie to Mazda's explanation, because if the 'mismatched' tyre is the cause of the alert being triggered, it should happen fairly quickly after a reset, which is not the case. The alarm may not appear for several hours into my next journey, or may even several days later. As I said, it seems completely random.

You mention the safety issues surrounding this fault. Whilst a reliable TPMS is very useful, an unreliable system is highly irritating and potentially dangerous, as it is a distraction and concern when driving.

Mazda have failed badly in this case; both in terms of the discourteous way they handled the conversation and also in refusing to acknowledge that there may be a fault with their system, proposing a completely crazy solution instead.

I have one further avenue to explore though. I have a family connection to one of Europe's senior car electronics troubleshooters, who has worked for several of the top manufacturers, tracking down the causes of faults like this. I'm going to tell him the story and see what he thinks.