Author Topic: Timing chain - is it unfit for purpose? Arrrgh Bill!!!  (Read 30513 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline organometallic

  • S Class
  • *
  • Posts: 3
  • Gender: Male
  • Colour: Black Mica (16W) Metallic
  • Engine: 2.2L
  • Fuel: Diesel
  • Transmission: Manual
  • Trim: Sport
  • Year: 2011
Re: Timing chain - is it unfit for purpose? Arrrgh Bill!!!
« Reply #15 on: September 19, 2014, 01:22:15 pm »
Hi Folks,

Just thought I'd reply here to share my experience of this issue and say thanks! The information held on this site with regards to this issue has been really helpful.

I Bought a 59 plate 2.2d Sport (185) from a non-Mazda dealership in April with 76k on the clock, it had previously been a lease car and had a Full Mazda main dealer service history at the correct intervals. The DPF light started flashing the other week so I booked it into Mazda but then it stopped so I cancelled the appointment. It came back on again after a short while, I checked the oil and it was at the X so assumed it was probably indicating the dilution of the oil from incomplete regens. Got it into Mazda and it was in fact the cam chain having stretched beyond the advised level. Having read posts on here I knew Mazda have made percentage contributions in the past so told Newport Mazda, they said they would ask the question of Mazda UK and I asked if they would forward the below email in support of my claim.

"To whom it may concern,

I am writing to lodge a complaint and contest the bill of approximately £900 quoted to replace the timing chain on my Mazda 6 2.2D Sport (185) R2 engine variant. Whilst I recognise that this is an accurate reflection of the cost to complete the work to Mazda’s rightly high standards, I contest that the responsibility of the payment should lie with me the customer in this instance.

It is widely known that timing chains are preferable to timing belts as they are expected to last the reasonable lifetime of the car. This is evidenced by the fact that they are more difficult to change as they should not need to be accessed as often, if at all (hence the increased cost associated with their changing). The main evidence point here is in the owner’s manual for the car in question (Form No. 8Z14-EE-08J) which does not state the timing chain as a serviceable item in the recommended service schedule (Page 8-4). The manual makes reference to the timing belt on the RF engine and gives a recommended replacement interval of 75,000 miles as expected for a belt. It does not however give a recommended replacement interval for the timing chain of the R2 engine, in fact it doesn’t mention it at all, not even for a recommended inspection frequency. I would assert then that it was not envisaged that the timing chain would stretch and need replacement at all and that this known issue is a manufacturing error and as such is the fault of Mazda. This manufacturing error is further evidenced by the fact that Mazda issued a Technical Service Bulletin (TSB) involving a software update for the car in question, which allowed for the cam-chain stretch issue to be indicated via the flashing of the DPF light.

When speaking to Alex at Newport Mazda he asked whether or not I was the first owner of the vehicle and I’m afraid I can’t see how this is relevant. Whether I am the first owner or the 10th, a timing chain should not need replacing on a car that is less than five years old and has only done 10,000 more miles than the suggested replacement interval for a timing belt. In fact two of the primary reasons for purchase of this vehicle were its exemplary service history, all of which has been performed at Mazda dealerships to a high standard by Mazda specialist repairers and the fact that there would be no timing belts to change every 75,000 miles.

I look forward to your response."

Well I had a call from Newport Mazda this morning and apparently based on their matrix for goodwill payments with this issue the max they should offer someone in my situation is 45%

1.5 years outside warranty (4.5 year old car)
25k miles outside warranty (85k miles)
2nd Owner
Full Mazda service history

However they said because they wanted to "take care of me" they are willing to offer 80% and that's 80% of what the labour costs would be if Mazda were footing the bill so 80% of quite a bit less than the £900 quote. They will be calling me back in a bit with an updated figure but I consider this a really great result and one that I owe in no small part to those who put the information up here for me to find.

So again THANKS.

DuNk

Offline TrickyLuck

  • S Class
  • *
  • Posts: 10
  • Engine: 2.2L
  • Fuel: Diesel
  • Transmission: Manual
  • Trim: Sport
  • Year: 2009
Re: Timing chain - is it unfit for purpose? Arrrgh Bill!!!
« Reply #16 on: September 19, 2014, 01:54:40 pm »
Hey DuNk,

Glad it helped, looking forward to hearing the final outcome!  :)   

I would certainly go through the process of getting the carbon build-up checked while the engine is in bits.  The mechanics checked this for me and it was clean, would be worth checking on yours as it's past the 75k, if it needs cleaning and action needs taking they should give you an "at cost" at the very least labour charge while the engine is in bits.

Definitely worth doing while you have them on the ropes  ;D

Check out the detail on my post of the 24th June or for even more detail check for 678hug's post on this.

Cheers

Tricky

Offline organometallic

  • S Class
  • *
  • Posts: 3
  • Gender: Male
  • Colour: Black Mica (16W) Metallic
  • Engine: 2.2L
  • Fuel: Diesel
  • Transmission: Manual
  • Trim: Sport
  • Year: 2011
Re: Timing chain - is it unfit for purpose? Arrrgh Bill!!!
« Reply #17 on: September 19, 2014, 02:35:11 pm »
Cheers Tricky! Mine had the injectors done in January (just before I bought it) so should be alright.

Final Price from Mazda (incl. oil change as it was at the X): £195

I can live with that.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2014, 02:38:46 pm by organometallic »

Offline TrickyLuck

  • S Class
  • *
  • Posts: 10
  • Engine: 2.2L
  • Fuel: Diesel
  • Transmission: Manual
  • Trim: Sport
  • Year: 2009
Re: Timing chain - is it unfit for purpose? Arrrgh Bill!!!
« Reply #18 on: September 19, 2014, 02:40:14 pm »
Wow! Good work, amazing result!

Just watch your back I'd be a bit wary of them saying

" they wanted to "take care of me" "

Hope they aren't related to the Sopranos!  ;)

Cheers

Tricky

Offline organometallic

  • S Class
  • *
  • Posts: 3
  • Gender: Male
  • Colour: Black Mica (16W) Metallic
  • Engine: 2.2L
  • Fuel: Diesel
  • Transmission: Manual
  • Trim: Sport
  • Year: 2011
Re: Timing chain - is it unfit for purpose? Arrrgh Bill!!!
« Reply #19 on: September 19, 2014, 02:51:48 pm »
Haha Quite!

Offline Willpower

  • Administrator
  • Takuya Class
  • *
  • Posts: 762
  • Gender: Male
  • Watching events
  • Engine: 2.0L
  • Fuel: Petrol
  • Transmission: Manual
  • Trim: Sport
  • Year: 2004
Re: Timing chain - is it unfit for purpose? Arrrgh Bill!!!
« Reply #20 on: September 19, 2014, 02:56:24 pm »
Thanks for the in depth explanation re your problem. I'm sure that many other members will find your posting extremely useful.
Look at life through the windscreen, not the rearview mirror.

Offline oldman

  • Sport Class
  • ****
  • Posts: 113
  • Engine: 2.2L
  • Fuel: Diesel
  • Transmission: Manual
  • Trim: Sport
  • Year: 2009
Re: Timing chain - is it unfit for purpose? Arrrgh Bill!!!
« Reply #21 on: September 19, 2014, 03:27:35 pm »
I'm glad all sorted and can whole heartedly agree on getting the sump sieve for carbon build up fixed ASAP.  it's killed my car!

pic here of good and bad for ref: http://www.cdn.dk/mazda6/tips.htm

Offline Mdon1983

  • TS2 Class
  • ***
  • Posts: 61
  • Gender: Male
  • Colour: Carbon Grey (28B) Metallic
  • Engine: 2.2L
  • Fuel: Diesel
  • Transmission: Manual
  • Trim: TS2
  • Year: 2009
Re: Timing chain - is it unfit for purpose? Arrrgh Bill!!!
« Reply #22 on: December 03, 2014, 04:48:44 pm »
Hi,

I've just got my car back today after 8 days at the dealership (had to negotiate with mazda and wait for parts) mazda contributed 30% towards my timing chain as good will, this would have been a lot higher if my car was under 5 years old but unfortunately its 6 months past that. All in all it cost me £500.62. I'm glad to have it back as I was sick of driving the 1.2 TDi Skoda Fabia courtesy car they gave me. To be fair, the dealer was spot on and can't fault them at all.

Word of warning, I spoke to mazda myself who have stated the new timing chains have NO modifications over the original ones so the issue of timing chain stretch still exists even after replacement. mazda only gaurenteed the replacement chains for 36,000 miles or two years, which ever comes first so because of this my car will still be serviced at the main dealer each time so they can read the chain to see if it has started stretching again.

Offline TrickyLuck

  • S Class
  • *
  • Posts: 10
  • Engine: 2.2L
  • Fuel: Diesel
  • Transmission: Manual
  • Trim: Sport
  • Year: 2009
Re: Timing chain - is it unfit for purpose? Arrrgh Bill!!!
« Reply #23 on: December 03, 2014, 05:10:24 pm »
Thanks for the note MDon1983, particularly that the chain hasn' t been modified I think that there is a lot of confusion out there and nobody seems to really know.

If anyone else has this issue I would still insist that this wasn't fit for purpose.  Take a look at your statutory rights if yours does fail, this takes into account the age, the cost of the vehicle, and how long the item should last taking into account normal wear and tear, for example.

The fact still remains that the timing chain should last the lifetime of the car.

I too was happy to get my car back, but still think if I had gone to trading standards I would have won, but it would have taken an age, and potentially more cash than it cost me if it resulted in small claims, you would have to weigh it up I suppose.

Just to mention my MPG dropped off by 5+ after I had mine done and it settled after a few tanks, just keep an eye on it!

Cheers

Tricky

Offline Mdon1983

  • TS2 Class
  • ***
  • Posts: 61
  • Gender: Male
  • Colour: Carbon Grey (28B) Metallic
  • Engine: 2.2L
  • Fuel: Diesel
  • Transmission: Manual
  • Trim: TS2
  • Year: 2009
Re: Timing chain - is it unfit for purpose? Arrrgh Bill!!!
« Reply #24 on: December 03, 2014, 09:23:20 pm »
I agree, it isn't fit for purpose and mazda know this because A, the are only offering a 36k warranty with it and B, they are contributing towards it. I did contact consumer direct regarding this and because I bought the car 2nd hand from an independant I would have to lodge my case against them so I was unwilling to do this as it isn't their fault and with mazda actually contributing towards my chain I was happy with that.

I won't be keeping the car for longer than 2 years so I'm happy that for me the chain issue has been resolved.

My car has never been good on fuel so I doubt I'll see any difference, it's always returned approx 42mpg over the last 20k.

Offline Photonjunkie

  • TS Class
  • **
  • Posts: 39
  • Gender: Male
  • Colour: Crystal White Pearl (34K) Metallic
  • Engine: 2.2L
  • Fuel: Diesel
  • Transmission: Manual
  • Trim: Sport
  • Year: 2010
Timing chain replaced with 25% goodwill gesture
« Reply #25 on: February 06, 2016, 02:53:41 pm »
info for fellow forum users:

2010 2.2d 185 Sport Estate 91K on the clock.
Full Mazda history until Dec 2014 then a local independent (all receipted).

Took car into Furrows Telford for a diagnostic (as had a rattle on tick over) - confirmed as Timing chain stretched. They admitted a Special Service notice had been issued in 2012 and put my case forward to Mazda for review - the next day Mazda gave me a 25% good will gesture.

All in all the work took about a week, cost of hire car, diagnostic and all the bits/labour £960.
The repair includes replacement of injector pipes also & cleaning of the oil strainer

Car fixed but decided to write to Mazda. The truth of it is, Mazda weren't actually obliged to provide anything. The fact that the car had been looked after meant Mazda offered the contribution. Didn't manage to get any more out of them - even when I told them I would go elsewhere for my next car (which was going to be a new Mazda 6).

Shame really, because after three years of ownership and pretty fantastic reliability, it has put a dampener on things.

Push for the Goodwill gesture. It's a known design flaw.

Offline mareng73

  • Sport Class
  • ****
  • Posts: 164
  • Gender: Male
  • Colour: Blue Reflex Mica (42B)
  • Engine: 2.2L
  • Fuel: Diesel
  • Transmission: Manual
  • Trim: SE
  • Year: 2014
Re: Timing chain - is it unfit for purpose? Arrrgh Bill!!!
« Reply #26 on: June 26, 2016, 09:27:19 pm »
I saw a photo of a Mazda timing chain on one of the forums and  it looked far thinner and flimsier than any chain I have come across  when car engines were fitted with chains  prior to cam belts.  The chains used to be  3/8" across at least and never failed or stretched such that they required replacing or caused rough running.
The life of a car is not 5 years, it could be 15  or 20 years. My last car was  still going strong at 14  and  I would think it would have lasted to 20 if looked after.
And they call these modern engines. Sounds like built in obsolescence.
Well done on a good result and sharing with us.
Previous Cars
Rover 45 TDI
Rover 400 DI
Nissan 200SX
TR7
TR Spitfire