Author Topic: Rear brakes advice  (Read 13338 times)

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Offline apav

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Rear brakes advice
« on: March 14, 2017, 04:58:13 pm »
Hello people,

My rear brakes had symptoms of being seized. They would dirt the wheels and they would overheat for a short period but they would come back to normal. Last weekend they got worse and today I took the car to the garage. The car is 8 years old, with 100K miles on the clock and it is driven very gently without a lot of braking. I bought it on the 6/2015 and the dealer did the rear pads for its MOT. I have done ~25K miles since then.

The garage suggests doing the callipers, discs and pads for £370. He says that there is a chance to free the callipers but he does not know the cost. He says it may cost £20-£40-£60 but there is no guarantee that next week it will not come back. The garage is the MOT centre I went last time and he says that the car cannot pass its MOT as it stands. He gives it a small chance of passing with unseized callipers but then he says that the discs and the pads need to be done.

I checked online for callipers, discs and pads from PAGID and my total is at £250 at its best. Without discounts, I can find the parts at £327 or £287, but there is always some kind of discount. When I asked him about that, he told me that he wants £140 labour. So more or less it is the same cost. It sounded like his £140 was related to my £250 parts but I was too stressed to think clearly on the phone.

With my previous car, the previous garage charged £120 per axle to change discs and pads. I can find the PAGID discs for £23 each and the pads cost £22. With a discount coupon it turns around the £60 mark for discs and pads. So the previous garage was charging something like £60 for labour. Now I can find the callipers for £75 each plus a £35 supercharge. So I need another £150 to £220 for the callipers. The garage seems to charge another £100 to fit the callipers.

I am a bit confused what to do next. I thought that with some greasing of the sliders and a brake fluid change, I would be OK. I was postponing doing them because they were coming and going all the time and I was waiting for the oil change. However, last weekend they got worse. I think they had a very slight constant braking which may have worn the pads completely. In my mind I am contemplating the idea of freeing the callipers and keep going until the MOT at the end of June or end of May if I decide to do it early. But then it seems that this is a temporary solution as sooner or later the problem may come back and the discs and the pads will need to be done.

The garage has the car on the ramp and he says to think about it overnight and tell him tomorrow morning until 8:30-9:30 or so before putting it back in order and charging me extra monies. I will probably be there before 8:00 to have a chat with him. Should I stop thinking about that and do all the work now, discs, pads and callipers, to make sure that everything is safe and will not come back within the next period? In that case, I will be able to do the brake fluid change and within the next weeks I will go back for the oil change once the DPF starts flashing.

I think the car has only done one brake fluid at its second annual service. It was sold to the second owner on its third year and I got it when it was six years old. That may have affected the life of the callipers or it may be that I do not drive every day and when I drive I do not use the brakes a lot and the car is always unloaded to distribute a lot of braking at the back. I see the point that the old callipers will cause the problem again. The new callipers should go for another 8 years before start causing problems.

Is it worthy not replacing anything at the moment and wait for any further developments, or should I go ahead and replace everything and forget about that axle for a while?

Thank you for your help!  :-[

Offline Tall333

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Re: Rear brakes advice
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2017, 05:51:18 pm »
Usually it's the caliper piston which gets bits of surface rust on it, and as the pads wear the piston settles slightly further out, gets to a rusty spot, and sticks.  Cleaning the rust off often works for a while, but sometimes not - if you're keeping the car for years then do the job once and be done with it.

Don't buy the parts yourself and have them fitted cos if there's a fault with them the garage can wash their hands of it.  If the garage suplies and fits the parts they can't wriggle out, plus the price is about the same anyway.

The lack of fluid changes should be nothing to do with sticking calipers, but personally I'd have the fluid replaced along with the new calipers.  It shouldn't cost much more since they're pretty much already doing the rears anyway.

Offline apav

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Re: Rear brakes advice
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2017, 07:09:54 pm »
Thank you Tall!

That is exactly what the guy from the garage says about the caliper, that the problem will come back. I will keep the car for ever but my only concern is that the discs look new. With the previous car, it failed the MOT on weak handbrake. My garage is not an MOT centre. He was just using somebody else to do the tests. So when it failed, my garage said that you need to do the discs and the pads. I was happy with that because the discs in the old car of the same age, were not looking new. They were not flat as their surface had scratched unevenly. He took apart everything on the next MOT when it failed again but he found the calipers to be fine. With the car now, the garage says that the damage has been done, probably because I do not use it every day, and I will need the calipers, discs and pads. What I do not know is whether I change the discs far too early. I have done 25K miles since the pads change but as the calipers got stack, the pads are near to their end of life. The rear left is worse than the rear right, but he suggests doing both. I am not good decisions at all, I complicate things too much. I will need some good sleep and discuss with him tomorrow morning.

I know what you mean about the parts and the garage. I had the same concern with the previous car that needed a lot of work but I always ended up having the parts supplied by the garage to avoid any problems. If I walk in a car parts store, the parts cost £330, which is some difference to the online price from the same store. So I suppose his total of £370 may be fair. In the worst case it is £120 on top of my part and he already spent some time with it today and he will do some more tomorrow. I do not know how much he charges per hour. I supplied him the engine oil, engine oil filter and the diesel filter, to make sure that I get the right C1 oil, and he charged £70. It sounded expensive but I did my job.

I have read before about the rust on the calipers coming because of the fluid accumulating water over the years but I am not sure how much of an effect this plays. In any case, I will change the fluid now that it seems that I will end up with the whole job done. With the previous car that I will all discs and pads, he charged me an extra £26 for the fluid change. So I may get a total of £400 with all done and then I will pass the MOT with no worries about the brakes. So far my maintenance has cost me only 1p per mile, so this extra money now, will come down gradually.

Offline Tall333

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Re: Rear brakes advice
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2017, 06:04:57 am »
You could probably get away with not changing the discs, but you'll come back to do them at some point.  Personally, I'd bitethe bullet and get the whole job done, and forget about it for a few years.

Offline apav

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Re: Rear brakes advice
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2017, 06:28:14 am »
Hello Tall,

Yes that is what I am thinking as well. I am going back to discuss that with him and then let him go ahead.

Thank you!

Offline apav

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Re: Rear brakes advice
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2017, 04:52:32 pm »
Hello good people,

I got it back with new callipers, discs, pads and fluid, and £370 lighter.

There are some things. I put huge effort to persuade him to use the pressuriser for the bleeding. Finally he was convinced. He said that the front nipples were too rusty to do them and he did it from the line. He says that this is fine. I am not sure about that and my pedal is lower than before. I asked his father who was around and he said that it will be fine once I drive it. I know from the previous car that the pedal should be as it was before. Any ideas? Does he need to bleed it again?

There are noises from the brakes. As he had told me that the sliders were fine, I assumed that there was nothing else to replace. In my panic, I forgot to double check that this was the case and the he would use the copper grease for the pads. Is there any case that the noise will go away? Again, with the previous car, there were no noises at all from the first meter I did.

I did one something mile to return home and I checked the discs. The rear right gets hot! My rear left was the worst calliper but now with the new ones what is going on? He has adjusted the handbrake which is now lower than before. Is there any case that he did that side too much or it does not adjust each calliper individually? I remember cars from the 80s with drum brakes the handbrake was adjusting in each side. I would like to drive the car on the weekend and I do not really want to drive it if it is not done properly.

What is your opinion about the lower pedal, the noise and the hot disc? He is not the most discussable person and I talk a lot until I get the right facts, so he will not be extremely happy to have me there tomorrow morning at 7:30. Should I go and ask him for some guarantee that if I drive it over the weekend it will go away? The hot disc worries me because this is not right and I will damage the brand new disc and pad. Oh dear me, how am I going to sell him that he has to check it again? If the disc was not getting hot, I would just leave the rest and would sort it out with the oil change but this hot disc is not good.

Thanks again!

Offline Tall333

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Re: Rear brakes advice
« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2017, 05:23:27 pm »
Disc shouldn't get hot, but give it a mile or two to bed in.

Offline apav

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Re: Rear brakes advice
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2017, 06:19:29 am »
Thank you Tall!

I found a video on YouTube doing the handbrake adjustment for another car and it is adjusted at each wheel.

I have the impression that the noise comes from the right side that gets hot.

It makes the noise in every left turn.

I am going back and will tell him that.

If he says drive it, I will go to the supermarket on Saturday. That is 2 miles to go. If it gets hot, I will come back and tell him to fix.

Hopefully he will just say bring it in today to have another look and that will be fix both the heat and the noise.

For the lower pedal, there must be some air left in the system. I cannot see how he can bleed from the line. But this may get out of the system with some driving. The point is that the car initially feels that it brakes less strong than before and then the back axle kicks in and it is stronger.

 :(

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Re: Rear brakes advice
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2017, 07:47:31 am »
 :(

Hello people,

I went to the garage and he agreed to check it again. On the way, it did not make noises on left corners but continuously like the disc is not flat and it is touching/un-touching something. For the 1 mile distance I did at 20 mph that rear right disc got warm while all other three were cold.

When I called him back, he said that he checked it and he fought it was the handbrake cable splitting but he found nothing. He put it back together, drove it and said that nothing was wrong. I went there drove the car for 2 miles and it is strange. The brakes are not quiet and this rear right disc now gets less warm than all other three.

I am confused. The video I found adjusting disc handbrake was for a 1994 Escort. He said that this car does not do it manually at each corner. He said that he put the pads in the calliper and then tight them which only take a small turn of the screw. I have no idea what screw he is talking about. He adjusted the hand brake from the central console on both days. He says that maybe before it was done too tight. What does that mean?

I think he has made this rear right calliper lose and it brakes less than the others. I cannot understand how this is possible as I assume that you fit the callipers and the pads together and then the car just brakes distributing the same pressure to each side of the axle. How is it possible one disc to be less warm than the other?

I have the car at home. I will drive it 2 miles tomorrow to the supermarket and will check the temperatures. I will check on the return. If there is difference, how can I make sure that all callipers are working 100% and the car brakes evenly? If one disc gets less warm, it means it brakes less and then the car is unbalanced.

Oh what a mess! Why he cannot it right? He was funny to claim that the previous garage did not do proper fluid change in the previous car but they had managed to deliver a car that was breaking better than before. Now I cannot claim the same and if he keeps fiddling with the car, I will end up with a broken central console and everything covered in crude oil inside/outside the car.

 :-[

Offline Willpower

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Re: Rear brakes advice
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2017, 09:23:29 am »
Regrettably it seems you are getting yourself deeper and deeper into problems with this person messing with your car.
It seems to me to be totally unsatisfactory that he is unable to do a simple brake servicing without causing all these problems.  Is it a recognised garage or just an odd job person who set himself up as a mechanic ? 

My advice would be to take it back once more and tell him in no uncertain terms that you expect your car braking system to be fully functional and working effectively without any further dramas.
That he has this last opportunity, to sort it out or you will be taking it elsewhere to get it done correctly and that you may consider reporting the situation to a recognised standards organisation.

Further if you have already paid for his services, that you will be pursuing compensation for this work based on it being unfit for purpose.  The Citizens Advice Bureau will let you know what your rights are.

   
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Offline apav

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Re: Rear brakes advice
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2017, 10:02:07 pm »
Yes it he is registered with the government scheme for car mechanics. I had done all these checks from the very first time I went.

I will drive it again tomorrow for the short trip to the supermarket and will check the brakes.

If there is any difference between each side, I will need to go back and ask him to take both of them apart and adjust them in the same way.

I do not think I will go too far away with a complaint. He said to go back if I do not like something. I just do not want to delay it until the oil change because he may want to charge extra money for the brakes.

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Re: Rear brakes advice
« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2017, 01:33:47 pm »
 :-[ * 666

Hello people,

May I express my pain? Pleeeease!

Story so far:

Visit 1: Fit new callipers, discs and pads
Visit 2: Redo the right side
Visit 3: Redo the left side
Visit 4: Prove that the left side stills gets hot
Visit 5: Redo the left side
Visit 6: Prove that the left side stills gets hot
Visit 7: Today

He had agreed to remove everything from the car, inspect and if happy, to fit them again.

I went there and instead of doing the work, he asked for evidence that the job is not done properly. I told him that there is no point to keep returning the car with one brake hot. The problem is there and he has to fix it.

He started swearing at me. I tried to talk to his colleague who does the actual job and he avoided me. The boss kept swearing and so I left in shock.

I went to the supermarket, returned home and walked to the police.

There was a pathetic policewoman there who said that this is not a problem. I should go to another garage and lose my money.

I explained that if I go back to the garage, the guy will start a fight. So I want her to go there and take the details from the garage, including that for the parts so I find a way forward. To my surprise she said that if there is a fight, I will be arrested. I felt more in danger at the police station than with the swearing monkey at the garage.

I returned home, packed everything and cycled to another local garage. I told to the guy that I am facing this problem with the other garage. He said that he can check the callipers at the braking machine. He did not elaborate on that, so I assume that he will do the MOT braking test to find whether it brakes. He wants £10 to check the car and find out what is wrong. He did not talk a lot, so I do not know what exactly he will do.

I am now so tired with this repair. Besides the money involved and the abuse from the garage, I want the car to brake properly, to use both brakes equally, so that I feel that it is safe. This is like wanting to change the world but it should not be that hard.

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/buying-or-repairing-a-car/problems-with-a-car-repair/

He does not appear in the trader associations. But I found him in:

http://www.theimi.org.uk/
http://www.imiregister.org.uk/

I emailed them and they wanted his details. I gave them his details and I told them my story, explaining that either he will fix the car or I will get my money back.

She only read the bit about getting my money back and she said that she cannot help me with that and that I should make a complaint to them or go through the trader associations.

I read about the complaint procedure and basically I only have to copy paste my information to their form. So I do not think they will be bothered with it.

After what happened today, I do not want to go back to the garage. The guy has no dignity. He does not understand the problems he is causing me and he does not have the will to put the things right.

Why is it so difficult for the garage and all other people I bothered about my case, to understand that I cannot afford losing the £370? I am curious to know what they would do if it was their car. As mentioned before, I did some very work and the garage should accept full responsibility.

I have a gut feeling that the parts are not perfect and that his fitting was bad, resulting in more damage, e.g. the vibration. I leave aside the mess he left in the car and that he broke one of the soft closures at the cup holders. I just want to have the brakes work as they should work. I paid him top dollar for that and he only pocketed the money.

Do you have any suggestions? Am I unreasonable? The garage gave me two options, either free the brakes or replace everything. I went for the expensive option to avoid having to go back but this went wrong. He supplied the parts and tried to fit them. But he cannot fix the car. That is for sure. He should have done it properly from day one. The fact that he is a bully does not help to sort out the problem as he cannot accept that he has done anything wrong. So he just waits for me to lose the money. How can I accept that? This is so unfair!

 :-X

Offline Willpower

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Re: Rear brakes advice
« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2017, 04:04:32 pm »
Oh dear Oh dear. You do have a problem

I read about the complaint procedure and basically I only have to copy paste my information to their form. So I do not think they will be bothered with it.

What makes you think that.   Clearly you have followed all the steps indicated by the Citizens Advice in their website.  In order to get any further satisfaction, you obviously need to take this to the next  step.  You will lose nothing by sending them your details and there could be a possibility that they will be able to investigate.

You have come too far and endured enough cr@p. You have already paid out a significant amount of cash and really need to get this settled.   
I am not surprised at the Police response, it's not their job to intervene in these circumstances unless it leads to an affray and in their eyes if you return to the garage, it is you causing the aggression. Wrong I know but at this moment in time that's their opinion.

My advice FWIW. Follow through with the complaint procedure. Do not approach the garage again (at the moment) If you get a positive response from the complaint, then they might suggest enlisting the help of a solicitor.
One more question though. Are you a member of one of the motoring organisations ?   AA  RAC GreenFlag ?  Perhaps they could help.
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Offline apav

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Re: Rear brakes advice
« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2017, 06:20:33 pm »
Thank you Willpower!

The lady at the IMI asked me to submit evidence. I do not know how strong my evidence is and what evidence they are looking for.

My evidence is that I drive from home to the nearby park which is 24 miles away and when I stop one disc is hot while the other is not. It is not normal for one of the rear discs to get as hot as the front discs and the other not to be hot.

I drive 2 miles to the supermarket and you can touch the disc and feel that it is slight warm while the other is metal cold. I drive the 2 miles back and the disc is warm to hot.

I have only done one motorway trip and when I stopped at the services I had three discs metal cold and that disc hot.

The garage says that there is no smoke coming from the brakes, so he has done a brilliant job! When I asked him to inspect the car, the car was not making any smoke but it just made the discs hot. So I thought that I would walk away with greasing the sliders.

My seized brakes could not have been that seized because the discs were smooth, the pads had material and my four trips I did on February before “fixing” the car returned 62.67 mpg, 60.62 mpg, 67.70 mpg and 67.17 mpg for the 359.4 miles, 251.9 miles, 374.7 miles and 308.8 miles I did in each trip.

I have emailed again the lady from the IMI and I asked her for her opinion for what she would do if that was her car and her treatment. I will fill in the form once I have her reply. The first thing IMI wanted to do was to call him. So, she may call him now.

I have also made a report to the trading standards department of the local city council and will wait for their response.

I am not going to the garage even if they ask me to go there and repair the car. I will ask for security measures to be taken to make sure that the garage follows the right procedures. The garage does not want to do that and dragged me there six more times pretending that he was redoing the brakes.

I do not have road assistance but I am certified and trained motorsport marshal. That is with the Motor Sports Association, which basically is part of the RAC. I have emailed my contact at the local car club, to get some more advice and possibly a suggestion for a passionate garage but you have a good point here that I will discuss with them once I get their reply.

I am deeply disappointed because at my old age, decided to go back to the university to finish my PhD. So now my salary is around £1200 per month. I have the complication of being EU citizen living in UK for 13 years and suddenly things got worse. I was living in Scotland before and my move to England turned out to be a big nightmare. After the Brexit I stopped all my plans to move out from rental accommodation but then at the start of the year the landlord went wild and started an eviction process. To my luck, all that legally classifies as illegal and revenge eviction and managed with the support of the Shelter, the union and the council, to stop that. But in between I was in panic and was out viewing properties while my brakes were getting hot. So I thought I would pay one third of my salary but I would then be able to forget about them. Instead of doing research I waste my time and energy with the housing and the car. Next weekend I have to be to a conference and I am still doing all other things but my work.

I was repairing the previous car to high standards even though it was an auction car. This is a franchise car, quite close to approved used standards, but despite that I want it to be as good as it should be. My plan was to keep it for “ever”. Then the Brexit happened and I regretted buying it but it had been such a help with my move from Scotland to England and the trips I did across England and Wales. So even if I am forced to ran away and sell it, I will not consider it a great loss. I just found it unfortunate to have to deal with this car maintenance and housing nightmares because while I could pay more money to get my own home and redo the repairs, in less than two year time all that can be lost.

Thank you very much again!

Offline Willpower

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Re: Rear brakes advice
« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2017, 07:18:54 pm »
Whatever the outcome of this distressing situation, thank you for sharing all the details and your progress to a solution. This is what forums are all about.

Good luck with your endeavours.  Please keep us in touch, I'm sure that in the future, others will find learning of your struggles and the ultimate outcome useful, should they find themselves in a similar position.

Glad to help.:)
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